rekindle fires,article.

[fireball]

here is a link to an article,written by V Dunn about rekindle fire:

http://www.fireengineering.com/displ...Rekindle-Fires

interesting article.maybe a beginning to a conversation about these rekindle fires .did you have a lot of these fires in your FD?

[jester1965]

There have been some instances of rekindles in this area where the saved structure was a total loss the second time around. It's an embarrasing event for most, but for some it's just part of what happens which is a wrong attitude.

About a month ago we responded as mutual aid for a working structure fire in an attic of a house converted into a multi unit dwelling. The host town released us after it was knocked down, but not completely overhauled yet. It was one of the hottest days of the summer, where several of us got overheated and suffered heat exhaustion. The host department cleared shortly after we left. Several of us thought that was kind of fast, but it's their show.
About 2 hours later as I was kicked back on the sofa recuperating they were toned out to return to the apartment building for "hot spots" (we share a frequency for dispatch). They toned out again for more manpower a little later, but didn't request us which was ok with me that day because I wasn't sure I was up to it. If they had done a proper overhaul the first time, there wouldn't have been a rekindle. They really weren't bothered by it, and seemed to accept it as one of those things that just happen sometimes.

We don't necessarily want to be there any longer than we need to either on these types of days either, but it's a lot easier to put it out right and put everything back into service one time. But then again they get paid for calls and likely got paid for going back.

[fireball]

Originally Posted by jester1965

There have been some instances of rekindles in this area where the saved structure was a total loss the second time around. It's an embarrasing event for most, but for some it's just part of what happens which is a wrong attitude.

About a month ago we responded as mutual aid for a working structure fire in an attic of a house converted into a multi unit dwelling. The host town released us after it was knocked down, but not completely overhauled yet. It was one of the hottest days of the summer, where several of us got overheated and suffered heat exhaustion. The host department cleared shortly after we left. Several of us thought that was kind of fast, but it's their show.
About 2 hours later as I was kicked back on the sofa recuperating they were toned out to return to the apartment building for "hot spots" (we share a frequency for dispatch). They toned out again for more manpower a little later, but didn't request us which was ok with me that day because I wasn't sure I was up to it. If they had done a proper overhaul the first time, there wouldn't have been a rekindle. They really weren't bothered by it, and seemed to accept it as one of those things that just happen sometimes.

We don't necessarily want to be there any longer than we need to either on these types of days either, but it's a lot easier to put it out right and put everything back into service one time. But then again they get paid for calls and likely got paid for going back.

thanks for your post,i asked this question cause here they do not have a lot of rekindle fires.i was just wondering if you have always seen that,i mean does it exist for a long time?you seem to have great experience in fire service.

[FranklinCountyVFF]

There has been one rekindle around here that I know of but it wasn't in our territory, we did assist during the actual fire but the first due company was called back when someone noticed that there was fire coming out of a propane tanks vent. I'm glad we weren't called out to help cause instead of just letting the propane burn it's self out they put it out, the mobile home double wide was a total loss any ways from the fire the night before. It proably could've been saved if it wouldn't of been for a down power line hindering operations.

[Chantal Heli531]

From a different side of things… we have to be constantly aware of the weather because it does affect the behaviour of a wildland fire. Wind gusts caused by frontal systems can rekindle fires faster than most of us can blink. The only thing worse than fighting a wild fire is having to fight the same darn fire twice. Usually day or night it’s relatively easy to detect visible fires but those smouldering embers often go undetected which can lead to rekindling, reignition, spot fires or even new fire fronts. It’s not uncommon for an area that appears to be completely extinguished to our naked eyes, it can easily be full of hot spots that could erupt into a fire later when those nasty and unpredictable winds kick back up.

Even though it is NOT happening fast enough for everyone involved, night-vision equipment is starting to find it’s way more into wildland firefighting and it‘s proving to be a real benefit. This technology is being designed to light up hot spots that are not visible to the naked eye and it will make mop-up at night safer and faster. Because night vision makes a tiny amount of light appear much brighter, a burning ember as small as a match head could be spotted from aprox. 100 meters away.

It sure would be nice to put this technology that we keep hearing about, actually into the hands of us on the ground. With this technology in our hands, making that ground inspection certainly will help us to make that determination or reveal whether or not a fire has the potential to rekindle faster and more accurate.

[FireTech05]

Rekindled fires… not something one likes to have to think about but we do. And it’s happened on me. On wildland fires overhaul is commonly called mop-up. To try to prevent any chances of rekindled fires, we search out embers that could threaten control lines at the fire, dropping dangerous trees and improving the fire line. I have known mop up procedures to last longer than extinguishment operations on some fires. I have had my fair share of what seemed like endless days of mopping up. A lot of time is spent “purposely wandering”, looking for areas to treat to prevent just that. We had found several “jackpots” (areas such as dozer piles with a lot of fuel) and worked these in cooperation with the brush engines.

Gnats seek out the warmth of hot coals and we constantly watch for them flying over concealed stump holes and other hot spots. This technique works best in the cool mornings. Pretty high-tech stuff, huh?

[sc_flametamer]

Even though it is NOT happening fast enough for everyone involved, night-vision equipment is starting to find it’s way more into wildland firefighting and it‘s proving to be a real benefit. This technology is being designed to light up hot spots that are not visible to the naked eye and it will make mop-up at night safer and faster. Because night vision makes a tiny amount of light appear much brighter, a burning ember as small as a match head could be spotted from aprox. 100 meters away.

Interesting.
We've used our Thermal imager a bunch to hit hotspots on brush fires, but I can see where night vision would work as well.


What I have noticed becoming a habit a lot here in the past few years is some of my fellow company officers have become too dependent on the thermal camera during overhaul. Because of the limitations of the technology this can lead to undetected hotspots that result in a rekindle. I'll use the thermal camera, but I still make my guys open up the wall, ceiling, etc to the point where I reach unburned material.

[Lucky 13]

Originally Posted by sc_flametamer

What I have noticed becoming a habit a lot here in the past few years is some of my fellow company officers have become too dependent on the thermal camera during overhaul. Because of the limitations of the technology this can lead to undetected hotspots that result in a rekindle. I'll use the thermal camera, but I still make my guys open up the wall, ceiling, etc to the point where I reach unburned material.

I see stuff like that getting ready to happen to some of the stations here in Sumter. A majority of them follow the same method as you mentioned (we're one of those stations), but there are a few that seem to rely solely on the TIC and they're gonna probably find themselves running back to a place they just left.

Also, here is a really good discussion we had on this very subject months back. Thought it might bring up some good points of discussion for this thread.

[mike74f]

Originally Posted by sc_flametamer

What I have noticed becoming a habit a lot here in the past few years is some of my fellow company officers have become too dependent on the thermal camera during overhaul. Because of the limitations of the technology this can lead to undetected hotspots that result in a rekindle. I'll use the thermal camera, but I still make my guys open up the wall, ceiling, etc to the point where I reach unburned material.

ur right i have noticed that too, ppl rely too much on the tic now ive always been of the opinion that technology helps us do our job better but after 9 yrs in the fire service as sc has said it there is limitations on technology especially since it cant see a heat source under a significant amount of debris, back when i was lt 3 yrs ago i stressed that to the newer guys and im sure some of u guys agree sometimes it just needs the human touch

[utfd701]

Thanks for diggin that up Tommy, I was gonna do the same.

Re-kindles do happen and are not 100% preventable due to the Human factor. No matter how much care you take during your overhaul/mop-up, everyone will wind up up with a re-kindle once in a while. Once in a while is OK, one of our neighbors, who has become heavily dependant on their TI and takes what it shows as gold, is running 45-50% re-kindle rate for this year. Ass-kicking time if it was us. Spending a little extra time on scene and ditching the tech stuff goes a long way towards NOT coming back. Think of the dollars being spent to fight a fire twice not to mention the wonderful PR your department gets.

Though I do like the idea of using a TI to find hot spots on a wild fire, gonna have to give that one a try, see how it works vs our tried a true methood of checking, checking and then re-checking over a period of several days.

[Smoothbore]

Suppression Thru Aggression!!!

[jester1965]

Originally Posted by utfd701

Thanks for diggin that up Tommy, I was gonna do the same.

Re-kindles do happen and are not 100% preventable due to the Human factor. No matter how much care you take during your overhaul/mop-up, everyone will wind up up with a re-kindle once in a while. Once in a while is OK, one of our neighbors, who has become heavily dependant on their TI and takes what it shows as gold, is running 45-50% re-kindle rate for this year. Ass-kicking time if it was us. Spending a little extra time on scene and ditching the tech stuff goes a long way towards NOT coming back. Think of the dollars being spent to fire a fire twice not to mention the wonderful PR your department gets.

No doubt on all these points. The key is taking the time to do it properly and all the way. Not only is it good PR with the community, it also maintains our reputation, respect and credibility among our peers in other departments. Nobody that I know of wants to be associated with a crew that has a fairly high rekindle record. It's hard to get that credibility back.

[Daywalker]

our officers don't hesitate to tell us to open up a channel in the wall. They know drywall is cheap and will probably end up getting replaced anyways, so they just have us open it up and be sure. in the grand scheme of things does it really cause that much more damage anyways?


i don't even know how good a tic would do in a room thats lath and plaster. that stuff retains heat like a brick oven.

[FloridaFireLt.]

I'll add, if I may, one helpful tip to preventing rekindles. I've made it standard practice for myself and my crew to return to the scene of the fire 3 to 4 hours after end of operations to perform a thorough walk through looking for any smouldering material. This practice, along with meticulous overhaul initially, has enabled me to say that my company has never had a rekindle. We have, however, prevented several rekindles.

I have left fire scenes not seeing even the faintest whisp of smoke and returned several hours later to find one or two little smouldering embers. It happens to the best of them.

Fighting a fire is a lot like treating an ailment. Once you administer a treatment you always do a follow-up with your "patient" to ensure your treatment has cured the ailment.

[fireball]

i was wondering,in the past,firefighters did not have such TI .do you know if there were more rekindle fires than today?

[FloridaFireLt.]

Originally Posted by fireball

i was wondering,in the past,firefighters did not have such TI .do you know if there were more rekindle fires than today?

Lolo, I can only speak from my own experience. What I've seen over the 20 years I've been in the biz is actually more rekindles than in the past. I've also noticed a lot of the younger officers and thier crews not doing as thorough an overhaul as the officers and crews I served under when I first began my career.

It's not a problem one can pin on just one person or one particular group of people (my mention of "younger" officers). As is always the case, deficiencies in performance can be traced from the most junior personnel all the way up the chain of command to the most senior.

I agree an over dependance on new technology contributes somewhat to the problem and In some rare an isolated instances, laziness plays a part. It's my belief that the larger percentage of the problem is the lack of training in proper overhaul techniques. It's not just teaching our younger firefighters how to rip open walls and ceilings either. Too many times I've seen crews practically demolish the interior of a structure and then leave all that material in piles on the floor instead of removing it to the outside of the structure. I had a district chief I worked under when I first started that would just about leave the house cleaner after the fire than it was before the fire ever started before he would release any of the later arriving companies. He was refered to by the lower rank and file as "The Overhaul Nazi". It wasnt exactly a term of endearment either but he never had a rekindle on his watch. I've been told by some of my co-workers that I have secretly been given a similar "nick-name" because I tend to practice what my old chief taught me.

TIC's are a great tool but as many above have stated, it should be used as just one part of a system of many techniques for ensuring the fire is indeed completely extinguished.

[utfd701]

I agree with FloridaFireLt, the re-kindles are increasing.
Over dependance on TI's, laziness and desire to get back home have had a negative impact on a some of our neighbors. IMHO this a top-down problem and more.
The Fire Chiefs, Deputy Chiefs, Asst Chiefs..... allow this stuff to happen, they are there, they see that overhaul is not being done in a thurough manner, they clear the scene when their interior officer reports nothing showing on the TI, they see their staff lighten up and stop operating with a purpose.
The TI dependancy problems can be fixed, as can the lack of thurough overhaul. But beyond the Fire Chiefs and Deputy Chiefs the bigger problems come from lack of community participation. Assume for a minute that you have a strong Fire Chief and stong Officers on a volunteer or paid on call department, but the some of firefighting staff has a tendancy to downshift and get lazy, or get antsy to go home and do sloppy or half-assed work once the 'fun is done'. How would one typically combat that? Discipline right? But where do you take things once the disciplinary actions have lost their effect? Termination? Who do you replace this person with? Your last recruiting drive turned up zero applications. So now your saddled a decision, keep the slacker who does at least show up and does have experience or dump them and clear another spot on an already sparse roster?

This lack of dedication and commitment to community by the community damages the work ethic of the few that are capable and willing, sloppy work is the result.

[Smoothbore]

Just curious how many remember the days you fought a fire with NO SCBA wen't inside regardless of the situation and you wen't in and you found the fire and you did the " Job ", how many remember those days ? Maybe Technology and fear of the bringing back the good ol days " limit's us and we rely on the $10,000 camera, but forget if it malfunctions or you lose it in a fire that your SOL if you haven't been keepin track of your surroundings and know what's going on. Just curious what you guys think, is technology hurting the Fire Service ?????????????

[Lucky 13]

Well, I'm a relative n00b when it comes to the fire service so I don't have as much experience as the rest of you, but the way I see it is that technology in and of itself is not hurting the fire service. What is hurting the fire service is the failure of powers that be to clearly define how new technologies should be used. After all, technology is a thing. It ceases to exist or operate without a human element.

People in general need to get away from the mentality that just because something is new and advanced that suddenly the tried and true methods of doing something cease to be of use (fire service isn't the only arena struggling with this...happens all the time in the military). There needs to be clear definition of how this technology should be used and what it's limitations are. What methods it can never be a substitute for and what outdated methods it can improve upon.

Bottom line is this. New and advanced doesn't always equal good the same as habit and tradition don't always mean something's lost it's usefulness or relevance. The true key is taking the best of technology and merging it with the best of tradition.

Remember, technology has been around for quite some time. It can be a great help or a great hinderance. That however is decided by the humans utilizing it.

[fireball]

concerning rekindle fires,here as they do not have TI in small FD,they do not have a lot of rekindle fires.in big cities like Paris or Lyon,they use some TI but only officers,firefighters need to train to use it.TI are pretty new in France,we are late concerning technologies.

now i was wondering,when people do overhaul,it depends on officers and firefighters and the way they do it:if they spend a lot of time or not......what do you think?

thanks for your replies,pretty interesting.