Goggles vs. Faceshields

[jester1965]

I appologize in advance if this is a re-hash of an old topic.

We are having an ongoing "debate" on the "legality" of the use of goggles instead of faceshields on structural helmets.
One side is clearly against goggles because they argue that they aren't really authorized because they don't protect your face. They also seem to think that they don't meet the state's BLS verbage on PPE, plus a dozen other reasons we shouldn't be able to have them. When given the fact that distributors offer helmets with goggles that cite NFPA standards for structural use the anti-goggles side argues the distributors will sell you anything and claim they are NFPA compliant just to get you to buy them. Also they state that your nose isn't protected with goggles.
The pro-goggle crowd argue that the shield doesn't do enough to protect your eyes, you can't see out of them when they get scratched up or covered with soot or ice in the winter. Not only that, but the things are always loosening up and dropping down no matter how many times you tighten them.

I can see both sides of the issue. We've looked at the NFPA standards. We've compared the goggles and faceshield on nose protection, and found that the standard 4" faceshield really doesn't cover most people's noses completely either. There is also the fact that we're wearing our SCBA to fight most fires so with the mask on the eyes and face are already protected. I've found that dropping my faceshield while wearing an SCBA mask reduces my visibility more than anything else.

Anyone got experience with this issue? I just received a set of goggles to try out but would like to hear from anyone else who has more knowledge.

[Lucky 13]

I've always questioned how a pair of goggles, that I can't wear during interior operations, suddenly make my helmet NFPA compliant. The drop down face shields get in my way. When I purchased my own helmet (county issues 1010s with the faceshield) I went with a Ben II that has the supposed NFPA compliant flip downs (bourkes). Whether that's true or not matters not to me. For times I need eye protection outside of a fire (extrications) I carry pair of industry certified safety glasses in my gear. A lot cheaper than goggles and do the job just fine.

One other thing is that the pro face shield folks will always say that they like the shield because it protects more of the face. True to a point, but debris still has way of making it's way under that thing.

[LdrClmr]

first off bourkes are NOT NFPA compliant as they offer NO protection for either eyes or face! goggles while offering eye protection offer nothing in so far as protection for your face itself....
Now Ive used a shield for numerous years, never had an issue with em, never had debris hit me in the eyes never had sparks or debris hit me in the face, as a matter of fact while working a cutjob Ive always liked the mask cause all I need to do to insure my face is protected is merely tuck my chin in and saw away! Now I have warped a few shields...mind you Ive warped a few people too, BUT, Ive never had an issue with one on a structural job, goggles and filtration masks I will use doing grass jobs, but that would be about it....for what its worth.

[Lucky 13]

Originally Posted by LdrClmr

first off bourkes are NOT NFPA compliant as they offer NO protection for either eyes or face! goggles while offering eye protection offer nothing in so far as protection for your face itself...

Hey...that's what MP claims. You'd have to take that up with them. Only MP claims to have a complaint version. The Cairns state OSHA only. Whether that's false advertising or not I don't know.

[FloridaFireLt.]

I have to agree with Kim on this one. I've used the standard eye shield that comes with the helmet the fire dept has issued me without any major problems. I have tried a few different types of goggles during wildfire ops and some structural overhaul that didnt require scba use and found that within minutes they either started to fog up or started to fill up with sweat and I had to remove them. It could have been the quality of goggles but after trying 3 different pair I gave up. I've found that as long as I keep my eye shield reasonably clean it works just fine.

Now Tommy has the right idea. A good pair of industrial type safety glasses seems to work best for those situations that full scba isnt required and you just arent happy with the regular eye shield on your helmet.

Being NFPA compliant doesnt always equate to "highest quality". In most cases the standards represent the "minimum acceptable quality" and in a lot of cases are either "enforced" only when it's economically or legally expedient or ignored and refered to as "just guidelines" when it's not.

Issues like eye protection and other safety equipment are perfect examples of why a dedicated, well informed safety committee is so necessary. If the members are on thier game they'll do the research and make a determination of whats best for thier respective departments. Then they set department standards for type of safety equipment to be used. On any type of safety related gear we have there are two types we can use, Equipment "issued" to us by the dept or equipment "approved for use" by the dept. In most cases those standards excede NFPA standards.

While I do benefit from being a member of a fairly large metropolitan fire dept, I think the safety committe idea is something that can be instituted in any dept large or small, paid or volunteer. All it takes is a few dedicated individuals. If there is one thing that is abundant amongst my comrades here on fireweb.us it is dedication.

[Daywalker]

whatever you use has problems. I don't like goggles because if I intend to wear them for overhaul, they are all smoked over and usually have crap in them from whatever fell from the ceiling (plaster, parts of tiles, etc). Besides, the goggles sit odd on my face because they are connected to my helmet so the elastic strap pulls them up a bit.

Face shields are nice, I like how they cover a lot of the face, but those things get scratched and smoke stained too. The connections get loose and even when you try to tighten it the thing barely stays up.

I clean whatever eye protection is on my helmet after every fire, but they still get pretty messed up to where you can't see through it to well. I just bought some safety glasses and put those in my goods. That way they are protected from the dirt, smoke, and grime until I want to put them on my face.

Never had Bourkes though, they look fairly useless except to give my helmet a little bit of a longer brim out front.

[sc_flametamer]

The Bourkes on a new Morning Pride Ben Franklin II helmet are indeed NFPA compliant.

http://www.morningpride.com/EZFlipHelmets.aspx

We introduced NFPA 1971 certified EZ-Flips at the 2007 FDIC show in Indianapolis. They were enthusiastically received, and orders have been pouring in. We have also received many replacement orders, as firefighters are installing them on their Ben 2 Plus helmets.

All firefighters and dealers at the show agreed that the new NFPA certified EZ-Flips were visually and operationally indistinguishable from non-certified EZ-Flips. Our engineering efforts to make the transition seamless were, we believe, critical to making this product well received and we were glad we were able to deliver on that promise.

[Daywalker]

does anyone know what they did to get the NFPA compliance? They don't look different and I haven't heard of any differences.

[LdrClmr]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

Face shields are nice, I like how they cover a lot of the face, but those things get scratched and smoke stained too. The connections get loose and even when you try to tighten it the thing barely stays up.

There is a film made to cover the shield, they sell em at suppliers, been out for years, and as for the fittings, they will strip out from use but they too can be replaced, if your shield is dropping for no apparent reason replace your fittings! simple proceedure, takes all of 5 minutes.

As for these new fangled Bourkes... they seem to have more center coverage than the older style but Im sorry, they dont appear to be any better than their predecessors. But to quote the cat who shit behind the piano..."it remains to be seen!"

[Lucky 13]

Again...the reason I simply use safety glasses when eye protection other than my SCBA mask is required. There some limited applications that I do find the flip downs useful. One of those is overhaul when the environment no longer requires the use of my mask. It's easy to flip down and keep pieces of the ceiling, wall, etc. from dropping down into m eyes without having to fetch for my safety glasses.

[stripes683]

A couple of years ago when I bought my leather helmet it came with the Bourkes attached. In the manual that was with helmet it stated that the Bourkes were for "asthetic" purposes only and not NFPA compliant. Having said that I do what Lucky does and carry a pair of safety glasses in my turn out gear. I too never understood why a set of goggles or face shield makes a helmet NFPA compliant when you have on an SCBA mask while you're at a working fire. I personally don't like either of them.

When we take classes at the Academy we have to have either goggles or a face shield on our helmets in order to participate although I took an LNG class last year and goggles weren't allowed becasue they came in contact with the face.

[utfd701]

Call me old school, but my structural lid has a 6" shield on it and protects most of my face. It does have fogging issues from time to time, but nothing I cant overcome. During operations that may result in high speed debris, I also carry a pair of safety glasses that I wear in conjuction. My wildland/extrication gear, I have a set of ESS Interzone's with the peal away protectors.

[jester1965]

Originally Posted by utfd701

Call me old school, but my structural lid has a 6" shield on it and protects most of my face. It does have fogging issues from time to time, but nothing I cant overcome. During operations that may result in high speed debris, I also carry a pair of safety glasses that I wear in conjuction. My wildland/extrication gear, I have a set of ESS Interzone's with the peal away protectors.

I also have a set of the ESS goggles with my wildland gear and have worn them during extracation but find they push down on my nose enough to block airflow with my Cairns 1010 helmet. Goggles are required PPE in our department for extrications due to one of our guy's getting a piece of glass in his eye with just the shield a few years ago.

The other day I was given a pair of ESS goggles designed for use with the Cairns helmet which I installed today just to see how they fit and to evaluate them. They seem to fit fine, but I don't like the way the strap hooks around the D-ring on the rear brim and rides along the top of the brim. They will be coming off soon I think because it seems like just one more thing to get hung up on in tight spaces.
ESS makes another set that hook on to the helmet right behind the face shield mount where the goggle straps attach to the mount, making them removable and useable with the faceshield up or down. These probably make more sense for our needs with extracation and such.
With just the goggles my face feels much more exposed. This ain't a good feeling not only with heat, but with the weather we have. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna go right now and put the face shield back on (it's snowing and freezing rain right now).

Thanks for the insight guys.

[mike74f]

those bourkes are the stupidest (if thats a word) thing out there i dont see how they protect u 1 bit. In my dept the members that have bourkes have to have goggles too. the bulk of us still use the regular face shields

[cwl3gemt]

i carry saftey glasses with me for times i dont have my facesheild down, like runnign pumps and stuff. get them in a 10 pack at sams, so if they get FUBAR'd, i just grab another pair.

[sc_flametamer]

I've had both Bourkes and both 6" and the crap 4" faceshields. They all suck. Fight a couple fires and they are worthless.

I had goggles for a while, they suck too.

So far so good on my 1044 with the Defender visor. It's still in decent shape after about 6 months.

Like Tommy I use safety glasses when I don't have a SCBA mask on. When they get scratched up to the point you can't see out of them you throw them away and get another pair.